Jesus - The Sign Spoken Against - Babylon Question
Well, Calvinism versus Arminianism. To me it is exciting and to a lot of
other people also, but they don't seem to be on this list except for a
couple of us. The reason may be that it is not taught in the churches,
so I would think that most of us have never dealt with questions of this
type. That's OK. We did get a couple responses on Calvinism but the
first one, I cannot understand. Maybe we could discuss why I can't
understand it but it is not important, we need to discuss some other
things.
Fact is we got side-tracked. Of course that is not the same as being
de-railed. As long as we allow Jesus to be in charge we will be all
right. More than all right, we are trying to move toward being perfect
like our Father in Heaven is perfect and love and humility is a greater
part of that. In fact the closer we get to that ideal, the more
attention that we will receive from those that will try to de-rail us.
It will happen you know, that they will try. I have with good prophetic,
scriptural and actual authority that they will come against us, they
will send their spies to monitor our little group and any other group
like us and they will do just what we can expect of them - to despise
and hate us and do what they can to destroy us by what they say and do.
It has been on my mind a lot of the decision that I made (we made) to
accept a diversity of opinion on a certain subject for the sake of love
for the brethren. I have had to really wrestle with the dichotomy of
love for the sake of unity on the one hand and uniform agreement for the
sake of unity on the other. I had to realize that it is not an issue of
love or unity or agreement or uniformity, it is for the sake of truth.
If it is God's truth that we agree to accept each other in love for the
sake of unity even though we may not agree, then who is to argue with
that. Not us, that is for sure but look out for the rest because the
enemy is just waiting around the corner to send his forces against us
because it is not according to their own version of the truth. You would
think that they would leave us alone and go on to the ones that agree
with them but that is not good enough if they are motivated by hatred
and pride. Not to fear. If the Lord is for us, who can prevail against
us.
I received the copy of Spread the Fire from TACF last week and was
reading it tonight. John Arnott wrote an article called "A Sign Spoken
Against" He was referring to the declaration of Simeon to Mary and
Joseph concerning the baby Jesus, "Behold, the child is destined for the
fall and rise of many in Israel and to be a sign spoken against." His
message was of his group being unified but diverse. Since there is not
much in this edition, I will put part of it here. If you want the whole
thing go to http://www.tacf.org/.
"Long before the renewal broke out, I made a conscious decision to value
the whole body of Christ. In fact, the diversity in the Church reminds
me of the twelve tribes of Israel. It was okay to be a member of a
different tribe, to wear different clothes, to fly a different banner as
long as everyone understood they were part of the same nation.
Since this wonderful outpouring came to our church, now six years ago, I
have seen this value both fulfilled and challenged. We have seen over
two million people from all over the world, from practically every
sector of the body of Christ walk through our doors. I love to hear how
Christians from such diverse backgrounds have found a renewed love for
the Lord Jesus Christ while attending our renewal meetings in Toronto.
As much as I love diversity and unity with my brothers and sisters in
Christ, I've made another decision: not to compromise the move of the
Holy Spirit simply for the sake of getting along with everyone. I've
learned that the real unity of the Spirit is not based on compromising
away the truth. Rather, the unity God produces happens when we are
flowing together in the outpouring He has sent. And it grieves me to be
rejected by brothers who cannot allow us to serve the Lord
Jesus Christ with different methods than they have. Instead they speak
against the move of the Holy Spirit and influence everyone they can to
do the same.
Jesus, The Sign Spoken Against
Why have some members of the body of Christ rejected this renewal? For
the same reason Jesus Christ Himself was rejected by those He came to
save. It was part of His destiny to not only unify but also divide.
One day, Simeon, an elderly priest who had been waiting faithfully in
the temple for the Messiah for many years, found himself looking into
the face of a tiny baby boy, whose parents were Mary and Joseph of
Nazareth. They had brought Him to the temple for the rite of
circumcision. Suddenly, the Holy Spirit came upon Simeon and he began to
prophesy, "Now your servant can depart in peace… for my eyes have seen
thy salvation…a light to lighten the Gentiles and to be the glory of
your people, Israel!"
About the time Mary and Joseph were rejoicing in this, Simeon probably
said something like, "But wait, there's more." "Behold, the child is
destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel and to be a sign spoken
against." And to Mary he prophesied, "…A sword will pierce your own soul
to the end that many hearts will be revealed."
Wait a minute? Why would God send the Messiah to be a sign spoken
against? I thought He was interested in saving lost people.
God the Father is not only interested in saving lost people but in
finding a bride for His Son, a bride who shares His values, and our
values are often only revealed when they are challenged. It challenged
the hearts of the Pharisees when multitudes were following Jesus and
their own influence was being lost.
The same is true today in the Church. The Holy Spirit's coming in
revival also challenges the motives of the leaders of the religious
community because it threatens their influence...."
Now that you have read it, you will see that it is only those who have
come out of Babylon that will be involved in the building of the house
of God. These are examples for us in these last days, that should be
obvious to anyone who believes in Bible prophecy. Recently one of the
anti-cult cults came to my site and really started poking around. This
particular one does not believe in the power involved in the laying on
of hands, they think that the latter rain concept is a deception, they
despise prophetic utterance and think the five-fold ministry is a fraud.
We have already seen what happens when we teach that love is evidence of
the Holy Ghost, we are called heretics. Look what happened when we
accept other millennial and rapture theories of our brothers and sisters
as non-foundational for the sake of love, we are a freak show and I am a
lying reprobate. Why do they rage? Why are they filled with so much
pride that they would seek to come against us? For us to be able to get
out of Babylon ourselves, we must be able to identify these false
attitudes and divisions and hateful doctrines. There are some things
that we cannot possibly accept. For us to identify the Babylonian
confusion, we must discuss the issues that have divided us and come
together in love and humility to come to one accord. This is what I have
been saying from the beginning, and this is why I have been saying it -
to get ourselves out of Babylon, to get holy and prepare ourselves for
the marriage supper of the Lamb. I can do no otherwise but what I feel
that the Lord has told me to do and I know that I am called to do it.
So let us get busy with it but know this: it may heat up hotter than it
has been and we are now accelerating our discussions by this. Don't drop
out just because you feel the heat. Pray that God will remove the veil
from our eyes that we may see clearly and remove the false voices so
that we may have ears to hear. And especially those of you on this list
that are not part of the discussions, I ask for you to please pray for
us. Pray that God speaks to us and strips away the pride of
self-righteousness that we may stand on the righteousness of God. Pray
an anointing on ourselves as well as each other and pray that all will
be done to His glory.
There are no suggestions from me on this except: No more "I have the
spirit, so I must be right" attitude. Also no protestant self-seeking
platitudes of "the Roman church is Babylon." We are better than that
and I trust more mature. All churches have their confusion and all
denominations have had their divisions and schisms. Identify them, it is
up to you, I have no more to say to influence you on direction. God help
us all.
Jay.
Joel Purdy
I read Darell Garrett's defense of the pre trib. view and made a point
of
looking up all the scriptures he quoted.
As I said in my previous letter. this age we now live in will merge
almost
unnoticed into the pre tribulation period which in turn will merge
into the tribulation itself.
As I read through the scriptures that Darell quoted the feeling came
that we
should not be concerned with groups of people (the Church or Israel or
Saints etc) but with our personal selves. So the question I asked
myself is
'Will I go through the terrible horrors of the Tribulation'? In Mat.24
Jesus used the word 'you' at least a dozen times as if to point at me.
So if
I live long enough I will go through
part of the tribulation and may be put to death by evil people or
natural
disaster. However if I stand firm this death will not be because of the
wrath of God as Darell thinks but an instantaneous transformation into
everlasting life- Jesus paid the price for my sin and wickedness so I am
freed from the wrath of God that is rightly due to me. Millions of
Christians will gladly go through this 'death' experience during the
Tribulation. In Rev.4 before the Tribulation there are only angels in
addition to the 24 elders but in Rev.7 after most of the Tribulation
events
there are multitudes of people clothed in white who have come out of the
Tribulation.
I like to think that the millions of true Christians who have now passed
on
and who suffered for their beliefs will have gone through their
own private Tribulation but they too will have passed on to the first
stage
of eternal life and will appear again in the Millennium.
The word of God tells me directly that if I survive this age and the
events
leading to the end of the age then I will go through at least part of
the
Tribulation and I am mentally and spiritually preparing myself to go
through
it all if God so desires me to. Alternatively God may call me in well
before
the Tribulation as He has already done to millions of His people.
Thanks for making us all think-even if we still haven't got it all
right.
Leander
Dean
Jay,i woke up this morning,being led to find this passage in God's
word,Matthew 21:12,13,and after
studying it,and meditating on it,i often wonder if the
Lord had of come in our modern-times,would he have,to repeat this in our
places of worship today.
With debates,which have been raging on since who
knows when,Jesus spoke in John 5:43,and said,I
am come in my Father's name,and ye receive me not:If another shall come
in his own name,him ye will receive.
Whether it be Calvin,or Wesley,Mormonism,
Catholicism,Protestantism,or whatever,it's
still about God's Word.Paul said in 1st Corinthians,
8:2,And if any man think that he knoweth any thing
he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.He also said in 1st
Corinthians 13:9,For we know in
part,and we prophesy in part.
What men like Calvin,and Wesley,knew they knew
in part,not meaning that erroneous doctrine,is to be excused,but the
same thing that they get flamed for
we do the same today.Scripture,not to be interpreted,for it interprets
itself through fulfillment.
I have been preparing a sermon,on chapter 4,of the book of
Revelation,and as far as the rapture is concerned,yes there will be
one,when? Who knows,
i do know this,at the beginning of the book of Acts,
a question was aked of our Lord,and it was this,
Lord,will thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?And he
said unto them,(it is not for you to
know the times or the seasons,which the Father hath put in his own
power).
If man thought that he could even come close,there
would be bets being taken in Las Vegas right now.
In Matthew 25,one verse speaks how,that, and they
that were ready went in with him to the marriage,
and the door was shut.The important thing about the rapture,is to be
ready like Noah,and his family,
Enoch,Elijah,the children of Israel,the night of the passover,and so on.
In the 24th chapter of the book of 1st Chronicles,
verses 1-19,paying particular attention to verses,
4. and 5. I read somewhere that these 24,men
symbolically represented,the twenty-four elders,
in Revelation,4,12 representing,the old testament,
or the 12 sons,and tribes,and 12 representing the
new testament,or the twelve apostles.Paul spoke
of our Lord in Hebrews 8:2 as A minister of the sanctuary,and of the
true tabernacle,which the Lord
pitched and not man.
Jay,out of all things said and done,i most of all thank God for his
grace,for where would any of us be without it.That which you teach is
very concise,
and clear,something that which is not being taught
today,keep it coming and let us, that have ears to
hear,hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jimbo
February 23, 2000
John Arnott:
First things first, what we need to discuss now is Babylon. You can find
Babylon the Great of the last days in the political world, the economic
world and the religious world. We need to discuss the religious Babylon.
What we have in this group is a Zerubbabel ministry of the two
witnesses. We are to measure the temple and hold the plumb line. The two
witnesses have not yet appeared, they will be coming during the
tribulation and there is much to happen before they will announce
themselves. What will happen first though, is a ministry that will
herald the coming and prepare the way. This is made up of many of us in
the apostolic and prophetic that will act as the two witnesses and come
together in unity before all these things in revelation happen. I do not
believe that there will be any that will come forth as the two witnesses
today as the only two witnesses, they need to be a part of this
collective unity or not a part at all. Many false Christs will come with
thus saith the Lord, we have already been warned not to go to them, if
anyone thinks that God has told them that they are a part of the two
witnesses, then they must be a part of the Zerubbabel ministry or they
are only in the way and deluding themselves. Before you go on, you need
to get over to the two witnesses page at
http://latter-rain.com/escha/twowit.htm now.
Jay what bizarre things you attribute to Calvinism.... the essence of
calvinism is simply the acceptance of the truth of Gods omniscience
(though it is impossible with our minds to apprehend the scope of His
holiness and power, and in humility accept the inability of our limited
mind
to sort his counsels) if someone who has reached this intersection in
their walk is assigned the label of Calvinist it is not an extremely
inaccurate (or dishonorable as you suppose) .... "Calvinist " I have
known
well have certainly not exhibited any indication of arrogance
whatever...I
would agree their insight tends to make them a rigid pain in the behind
but
there is a certain peculiar grace which is so sweet and uncommon in
their
souls they aren't worried about relating to other believers because they
are
consumed with relating to the bizarreness of our position in Christ to
God
himself.. remember the babe who sat at Jesus feet instead of fixing
dinner
and doing housework...Jay baby your fixing dinner were sitting at the
feet
lighted up dude......
Dear Jay
Hey Jay i decided to take a look at ^#(%* @(^)$'s site
too...oh my gosh......that guy really has a bad
spirit....so i guess he has been taken off the
list...well i hope so.....we must be doing something
right with people like that finding us! what you said
about calvinists not denying the godhead...i guess not
the same way as like the jw's. Though have you ever
noticed how they always talk of 'God the Son' and not
'the Son of God'? this is because they do not believe
that Jesus is 'God from God' as the creed says. They
deny that Jesus is the revealer of the invisible
Father. therefore they cannot see Jesus as the
reflection of the will of the Father, which is why
they have such a hard time with healing for today. God
sent his Son to become human and suffer with us so
that we could relate to the Father through the Son.
The Son reveals the Father to us. So when we see Jesus
healing and doing good then we know that that is the
heart of the Father for us. The Calvinist God is
unknowable, impersonal, and distant, and so they
substitute knowledge for relationship. to the
calvinist the invisible Father has not revealed
himself through the Son. How they can reconcile that
to the scriptures and to the historic teaching of the
church i do not know. i became a Christian 10 years
ago when i was 15 and soon became involved with
calvinists and i would have to say it almost destroyed
me. they told me to leave the church i had gotten
involved with because it was Pentecostal. Because i
didn't come from a respectable middle class background
i was treated with a lot of suspicion. i read tons of
theology (talk about a mis-spent youth!) but i always
questioned everything. God started showing me stuff in
the Word, mainly along the lines of the stuff i shared
before, and i also saw how I had lost my relationship
with God. Well thank God He pulled me out of all that
junk. Interestingly, like the jw's, salvation to the
calvinist appears to be a (Greek) process of gaining
knowledge (the bible calls it 'ever learning and never
able to come to a knowledge of the Truth), rather than
a process of transformation into Christlikeness. No
doubt they have been influenced by the Greek concept
of immortal soul and bi partite nature of man (body
and soul) rather than the biblical spirit, soul and
body. to Greek thinking the mind is the highest
function of the human spirit. when jonathon edwards
rejected the faculties psychology of calvinism, and
started preaching to the conscience and not to the
intellect, there was revival. well better go.
Hi Jay,Latter Rain Discussion Archives
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